bleach: You've acted, directed, written, produced, composed your own movie score, and modeled. You're an artist---

Vincent Gallo: I'm not an artist, I'm a hustler. As a hustler I've done many things. You should really believe it when I tell you that, 'cause I'm not being sarcastic. I'm a total hustler. What that means is I've hustled to make a buck and I've hustled to change the world and I've hustled to take revenge--but it's always hustling. I've never had a career or a single goal. I've never been formally educated. To get things together, to make a living, I constantly have to hustle.

I read somewhere that when you first arrived in Los Angeles in 1978, the first place you visited was Muscle Beach. Why there?

Because back east we really have no clue of California. Because back then in '78, there were no TV shows like there are now. There were only the films of Kenneth Angers, which were so avant garde that I couldn't get a sense of the city, only of the subculture. And there were pictures of Hollywood and Vine and the beach. I didn't know that there was anything in between. So I walked up and down the Hollywood Boulevard for a week, then finally I asked someone how to get to the beach.And I took a bus to the beach. When we were driving down Sunset Boulevard, I thought those were the only houses, that behind them were empty fields. This is one of the hardest cities in the world, if you come here young. You come here at sixteen years old, you have no clue and no friends, it's one of the most avant garde cities on the planet.

What do you mean by avant garde?

You can go to Rome, you take the train to the city and it's the center of the city. In one afternoon, you know where the rich people live, where the poor people live, where the artists hang out. Hong Kong and Calcutta you can figure out easier than L.A. You have no concept of where the artists are, where the cool chicks are--you never see chicks. I mean, I was here for weeks, I never saw one decent looking chick.

Come on...

Decent-looking chicks didn't walk up and down the streets then--this is the '70s, man. This is not now, when maybe a couple of cute chicks would go to Frederick's of Hollywood to buy some rock 'n' roll boots. Hollywood Boulevard then was just nasty, fuzzy-haired tourists. I didn't see one California girl. Not one.

L.A. can be difficult.

No one talks to you...I'm in a one-piece bathing suit with blue hair in '78. Not '84, but '78.

You were pre-punk.

In London I was hard-core. In the New York City punk clubs I was considered a freak. Surfers in 1978 must have spotted you a mile away. And they wanted to kick my ass. They didn't know what kind of sickness I was. It was just bad, a bad vibe right away. It was oppressive heat being on the street in these heavy clothes--because it was winter in New York. It was like 90 degrees on Hollywood Boulevard. I stayed for two-and-a-half weeks until I found a courier flight back to New York. I met this one hippie-chick, though. I got fellatio, and I gave her head back. She had this hairy hippie crotch--those '70s bushes that you don't see anymore. Lemme tell you something, when you looked at the snatch of a chick in the '70s, that beautiful, natural hairline. It was so fuckin' beautiful, so fuckin' beautiful. And you know what, they didn't work out, so when they had a nice body it was nice in a different way. It was amazing--amazing. I can sniff and taste it now. I haven't been with a girl that had that natural glow in a long time. They're all so worked out, toned and yoga-ed--they're yoga-ed and waxed.

A lot of women feel that they have to live up this...

Gimme a nice little chubby belly, ya know, with some big bush--but not bush down the leg, just like a little bush, a natural bush. I mean, my idea of cutting-edge grooming was that they shaved under their arms. That was good enough. When I think of the prefect chick, I close my eyes and I remember those first days of summer in Buffalo, when the sun finally broke out and that first halter-top appeared. The girl would lean over, and you'd see just the side of her boob. That--that's what I think of. Thank God for girls...

Your cast in Buffalo '66 is pretty impressive--Mickey Rourke, Angelica Houston, Ben Gazzara, Kevin Corrigan--how did you manage to hustle that cast together?

I had never met any of them before, except for Kevin Corrigan. Never even saw them in person. I produced the movie. I know how to make a deal. Is Buffalo '66 autobiographical? No, it's a total fiction, but I used my mother and father as central characters to this fiction. Billy Brown is nothing like me. I'm a very subtle, aesthetic person.

I read somewhere where you said that your parents tried to discourage you from being a performer.

Oh, it was beyond that. I'm sure a lot of people hear, "You'll never be able to do that." It was much more violent and aggressive than that. I was forbidden to have a guitar, so my guitars were hidden under my bed. I was forbidden to think ever that I should deserve something good in my life. I was forbidden to smile after awhile because I had done some bad things.

By your father?

Yes, by my father. [contorts his face wickedly] "Don't let me see you smile, 'cause I'll rip your face off!"

That's the same face your characters make in Palookaville and Buffalo '66.

I'm playing, really, my father.

How did your parents react to your success with the Calvin Klein ads?

I had no relationship with them at that time, so I don't know if they even saw that stuff.

How did you come to work with Calvin Klein?

My relationship with fashion advertising came conceptually. I thought of it first, it didn't just happen to me. I thought, You know what, I'm gonna do this thing too, just watch. And I made it happen. You think it, and you visualize it, and you're just there for it to happen. You allow it to happen. But with fashion photography you're more the subject of someone else's art, right? I'm never a subject. I never sit around waiting to be picked on the football team. I'm either gonna be the person who's picking first, or the first picked, otherwise I'm not gonna be a football player.

What's the best place on earth for you to be?

The best place on earth for me is inside a car driving.

Just driving in a car?

In America. I'm so in love with the United States. Not as a patriot. I'm in love with America like it's my first girlfriend. The geography, the people, the smell, the touch, the taste, the gas stations. I'm madly in love with America. Madly in love. And I was the guy that people used to say, "He's so European." I mean, I never felt like that. I don't relate to those monkeys. I just can't relate to them. I'm a super American--Captain America.

What was your first experience with a feature film?

If you see the movie Basquiat, there's a scene in the film that's black-and-white super eight and it's a guy flying through the air in a sort of choppy, jump-cut film loop. And he kind of freeze frames in a crucified position. That's me at the age of sixteen filmed by Michael Holman. That's my actual first moment on film.

Having been a model, an actor, a director, how would you label yourself today?

If I had to think of my life after the experience of making a film, I would say that with my personality and whatever my character defects are, I'm certainly more of a filmmaker than anything I've ever done in my life.

Can you foresee pursuing filmmaking?

I have a feeling that I'm not going to live very long. I'm not saying that to be melodramatic. I just have known my whole life how long I was gonna to live and what was gonna happen. Everything that's happened to me has kind of fit in the picture. I always thought that I would do what I've done and get as far as I have now and something bad would happen. Like a chick would kill me or I'd crash my car going down Nicholas Canyon just when it looked like I finally settled in to something. I cry sometimes thinking how sad that is because I really enjoy life now, I'm so happy. There were a lot of years where I was in a lot of pain and unable to enjoy my life. Even today, I came in for the photo shoot aggravated, frazzled, and pissed off, but in my own miserable way, I'm the happiest guy in the world.

If you had to compare the feel of Buffalo '66 to a physical object, what would it be?

To an old photo album, I think. Aesthetically, visually... Like one from the '30s? No, not even that old. Like the oldest one that a normal family would have. Not old like out of my time. Like if I went to my folk's house and grabbed one, the photo album would come to life. Is there anyone who has greatly affected your life, who you're in awe of? I was in awe of Richard Nixon. When I met Richard Nixon, it was the single most spectacular moment of my life. His political career chronicled a very intense period of my growing up.

How old were you?

I was thirteen years old then, and I related to the melodrama of his public chastising. I remember when these left-wing liberal commies were able to permeate American politics. Suddenly, anyone in government was evil unless they were a Kennedy, unless they had socialist undertones...at the end of Nixon's career, I knew that the country had changed.

And you grasped all that at thirteen?

Yes, I had a grasp of that then.

Didn't you have any younger, more rock 'n' roll like heroes?

The person that I idolized more than anyone else in my whole life was Chris Squire, the bass player from Yes. The reason for that is he was the person I liked most at this time in my life when I needed someone like that.

What was it about him that you liked?

He's incredibly talented musically, and I liked the way he looked. I think that most men, if they were really being honest with themselves and talked about other men that they liked, the way they looked would have a lot to do with it.

Like their style, you mean?

Yeah, I don't mean that you're attracted in a sexualized way, but you're attracted to the language of how they look. Their walk, their expressions--I thought Chris Squire's face was brilliant.

What's the most exciting thing that's happened to you recently?

My movie is showing at the Museum of Modern Art. Probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me. The only museum I've ever been in in my entire life is the Museum of Modern Art, where I've seen three shows. I saw the Robert Ryman retrospective, the Andy Warhol retrospective, and the Paulo Pasolini retrospective. I was so blown out by those that I didn't even think of going to see any other work for years. So to have my film show in the same theater where I saw the Paulo Pasolini retrospective, it was just incredible.

How were you chosen for that?

They have this thing for first-film, first-time directors. It's a perfect theater. It's the Museum of Modern Art, man. It's the biggest thing that's ever happened to me. It's an event. It's an event.

What's the best age for retirement?

As soon as you can, man.

So if you could, you'd retire tomorrow?

Absolutely, because I have so many interests.

Would you stop hustling?

No, never. I like manipulating too much. It's in my nature.

My thanks to Terri!!